I had a very pleasant and intellectually engaging time talking to podcaster Adrian Baker for his wonderful Hacking the Self podcast. Baker represents the best tendencies in consciousness hacking as a field that crosses the exploration of mind and spirit with a strong concern for rationality, clarity, and the clear statement of positions. In talking about fascinating and often polarizing figures like Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris, both of whom I admire a great deal while frequently disagreeing with, Baker forced me to refine my own positions, reminding me again how the art of conversation–as manifested by the growing number of excellent podcasts–shows how people and thought can both productively evolved through mutual risk and refinement.